"Morgans" > wrote in message >...
> "Badwater Bill" > wrote
>
> Then you have a guy like Pac who is a DC-10 captain
>
>
> BULL****
>
> You know it is, too.
>

No Morgan, BWB's right. You're pretty clueless up there in your
hillbilly log cabin. Bill knows I'll buy him a beer some time and
show him my licences. Or take him down and preflight a ten sometime.
But unlike you, he is experienced with jet equipment and recognizes a
fellow jet operator. You simply don't have any experience in anything
to be able to spot a jet operator. Do you know what a pt2 and pt7
sensor is? Ever heard of EPR? Do you know what a PDU or an ACM is?
How about ECAM or GPWS? Three of these are not on DC-10's. Which
ones Morgan?

How about something operational. Whats a TOGA t/o? Can you do this
on any dash ten model or just on dash 30 models? Can you land with
the center gear retracted? Would that be on a late model or early
model DC10? If you TOGA at DH minimums will the gear contact the
runway in the fog? When will this happen?

You aren't qualified to spot anything but a student pilot, because
judging from your posts that's exactly what you are.

The moral of the story is to stick to what you know.
I haven't seen any evidence that you know anything Morgan.

Are you even a pilot?

pacplyer

"pacplyer" > wrote: a bunch of predictable BS

Bill knows I'll buy him a beer some time and
> show him my licences.

> pacplyer

Why don't you buy any two of the other established RAH members a beer or
three sometime? Like Jim Weir, or Wantajaw? Or Chuck SuzaR&^&^%k, or Jay,
or Highflyer, or Urban? Prove to me you are not a figment of a warped
imagination. But see part of the problem is, you don't have a real name
here. No identity. No credibility. Any DC 10 captain could buy one of
these guys a beer and say they are pacplyer. IT WOULD PROVE NOTHING. So go
buy yourself a beer.
--
Jim in NC

P.S. I'm done with you for a while, until it amuses me to play with you
some more.


---
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Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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In > pacplyer wrote:

> No Morgan, BWB's right. You're pretty clueless up there in your
> hillbilly log cabin. Bill knows I'll buy him a beer some time and
> show him my licences. Or take him down and preflight a ten sometime.
> But unlike you, he is experienced with jet equipment and recognizes a
> fellow jet operator. You simply don't have any experience in anything
> to be able to spot a jet operator. Do you know what a pt2 and pt7
> sensor is? Ever heard of EPR? Do you know what a PDU or an ACM is?
> How about ECAM or GPWS? Three of these are not on DC-10's. Which
> ones Morgan?
>
> How about something operational. Whats a TOGA t/o? Can you do this
> on any dash ten model or just on dash 30 models? Can you land with
> the center gear retracted? Would that be on a late model or early
> model DC10? If you TOGA at DH minimums will the gear contact the
> runway in the fog? When will this happen?

Who here other than you and BWB really gives a ****? This is NOT rec.
aviation.jet-jocks; most of us are here because this is a hobby. This
newsgroup is devoted to small light planes constructed by amateurs for
education and recreation so you might get a more positive response if
you took your rantings to a more appropriate newsgroup. And not that it
matters, but I do know what most of your acronyms mean.

----------------------------------------------------
Del Rawlins-
Remove _kills_spammers_ to reply via email.
Unofficial Bearhawk FAQ website:
http://www.rawlinsbrothers.org/bhfaq/

Del Rawlins > wrote in message >...
> In > pacplyer wrote:
>
> > No Morgan, BWB's right. You're pretty clueless up there in your
> > hillbilly log cabin. Bill knows I'll buy him a beer some time and
> > show him my licences. Or take him down and preflight a ten sometime.
> > But unlike you, he is experienced with jet equipment and recognizes a
> > fellow jet operator. You simply don't have any experience in anything
> > to be able to spot a jet operator. Do you know what a pt2 and pt7
> > sensor is? Ever heard of EPR? Do you know what a PDU or an ACM is?
> > How about ECAM or GPWS? Three of these are not on DC-10's. Which
> > ones Morgan?
> >
> > How about something operational. Whats a TOGA t/o? Can you do this
> > on any dash ten model or just on dash 30 models? Can you land with
> > the center gear retracted? Would that be on a late model or early
> > model DC10? If you TOGA at DH minimums will the gear contact the
> > runway in the fog? When will this happen?
>
> Who here other than you and BWB really gives a ****? This is NOT rec.
> aviation.jet-jocks; most of us are here because this is a hobby. This
> newsgroup is devoted to small light planes constructed by amateurs for
> education and recreation so you might get a more positive response if
> you took your rantings to a more appropriate newsgroup. And not that it
> matters, but I do know what most of your acronyms mean.
>
> ----------------------------------------------------
> Del Rawlins-
> Remove _kills_spammers_ to reply via email.
> Unofficial Bearhawk FAQ website:
> http://www.rawlinsbrothers.org/bhfaq/

Yes, you are right Del. My having flown the big iron is not valid
here. (But I didn't bring it up.) My post was in response to Morgans
shooting from the hip on a subject he clearly knows nothing about. If
I was to tell you that I don't believe you're a Bearhawk Builder, and
you respond with specific problems you've encountered that are unique
to Bearhawk builders and nobody lurking challenges your claims, then
it's likely you're telling the truth. But if I'm paranoid like Bernie
the Butt**** and Morgans I won't beleive it since I did a search on
google and only came up with the marketing page. Del, you and others
here, I think, are still missing the more salient point of the value
of long term building and flying experience. Most of you don't have
this depth of experience. While you might be able to parrot these
basic airline 101 acronyms above, this doesn't make you a jet pilot.
There's no way you could answer the operational questions I posed
above since you've never flown the equipment. This exposes you as
unqualified to run off somebody who is discussing the DC10. But
you're probably qualified right now to run somebody off who is
spreading untruths about bearhawk building in this forum. Does one
project make you an expert builder? No. Does it give you the mandate
to run off more experienced builders/flyers who use foul language? No.

Jets are irrelevant here, true. I used to fly FAA proving runs and
teach jet groundschool. As an ATP I trained new co-pilots for eight
years. Who gives a ****! I agree. I don't hang out here to learn or
teach jets. I've already done all that. I hang out here to be
entertained by guys like BWB and learn a few things about homebuilding
in the process. It's just rec: (stands for recreation.) All this bad
blood between you people is ridiculous. When are you ever going to
get over it?

pac

In > pacplyer wrote:

> Yes, you are right Del. My having flown the big iron is not valid
> here. (But I didn't bring it up.)

You may not have brought it up, but you are/were one of the people
holding it up as a yardstick against which other members of this
newsgroup should be measured.

> My post was in response to Morgans
> shooting from the hip on a subject he clearly knows nothing about.

So Jim thinks you are not who you say you are. If you are, then it
should be easy enough to make a fool out of him by posting your identity
and credentials here. If you are not willing to do so, then drop it and
let it ride. Consider it the price of your anonymity.

> If
> I was to tell you that I don't believe you're a Bearhawk Builder, and
> you respond with specific problems you've encountered that are unique
> to Bearhawk builders and nobody lurking challenges your claims, then
> it's likely you're telling the truth.

The point is, I don't need to do that. My identity and posting history
are a matter of record, and I am known to Bearhawk builders both locally
and on the world wide Bearhawk email list. I even put together an
entire FAQ website as a service to builders and potential builders. The
same can be said of many posters to this group. If you were to get
really bored, you could pull up my name on the FAA database and see my
lowly PP-ASEL and current medical, and later on a couple more ratings
I've earned but which haven't shown up there yet.

> But if I'm paranoid like Bernie
> the Butt**** and Morgans I won't beleive it since I did a search on
> google and only came up with the marketing page. Del, you and others
> here, I think, are still missing the more salient point of the value
> of long term building and flying experience. Most of you don't have
> this depth of experience.

I don't ignore the value of that experience in general, I just don't see
it as having a lot of value to ME and I don't appreciate it being used
as a standard of comparison in a newsgroup where it is not relevant. In .
piloting, sure, but not here. I don't really care much about experience
in punching 747 shaped holes in the sky, or how much time at the top of
a loop a guy might have, because I have no interest in doing those
things. They simply aren't relevant to my task at hand, which is
getting something to fly in the first place.

> While you might be able to parrot these
> basic airline 101 acronyms above, this doesn't make you a jet pilot.
> There's no way you could answer the operational questions I posed
> above since you've never flown the equipment. This exposes you as
> unqualified to run off somebody who is discussing the DC10.

For what it's worth, pilots aren't the only ones who need to know what
that equipment is and what it does. I'd like to make it clear that I am
not working on any of that stuff but I had to have at least a basic
understanding of it in order to get my most recent ratings.

> But
> you're probably qualified right now to run somebody off who is
> spreading untruths about bearhawk building in this forum. Does one
> project make you an expert builder? No.

Nobody here is qualified to run anybody off. All any of us can do is
post factual information as we understand it, and then let the newsgroup
decide. I can think of only one instance where somebody was physically
run off the newsgroup, and in that case it was the individual's employer
who actually did the deed, once they were informed of what their
employee was doing using company resources. It was BWB who did this (
aided by the resident uber-hackers who tracked him down) and at the time
he was widely hailed as a hero not only on this newsgroup, but on others
which had been targeted by the individual in question.

> Does it give you the mandate
> to run off more experienced builders/flyers who use foul language? No.

It doesn't give me or anyone else the mandate to run off less
experienced builders/flyers either.

> Jets are irrelevant here, true. I used to fly FAA proving runs and
> teach jet groundschool. As an ATP I trained new co-pilots for eight
> years. Who gives a ****! I agree. I don't hang out here to learn or
> teach jets. I've already done all that. I hang out here to be
> entertained by guys like BWB and learn a few things about homebuilding
> in the process. It's just rec: (stands for recreation.) All this bad
> blood between you people is ridiculous. When are you ever going to
> get over it?

The point is, the controversy surrounding BWB has reached the point
where it isn't about building or flying anymore, and it certainly isn't
entertaining. I do NOT have a dog in this fight and really do not care
what happened between him and the others at P'ville. I've tried to keep
an open mind towards him because he really does have a lot to offer and
has contributed greatly to the discussion here at times. But I also
can't help but notice the pattern of alienation of people who he once
called friends. Even Ammeter, who stuck with Bill through thick and
thin on this group, has now been lumped in with the rest of the "low
time wannabes" for having finally decided that enough was enough.

----------------------------------------------------
Del Rawlins-
Remove _kills_spammers_ to reply via email.
Unofficial Bearhawk FAQ website:
http://www.rawlinsbrothers.org/bhfaq/

I didn't see this one, sorry my response is late Del. <snip>

Del Rawlins > wrote
> The point is, the controversy surrounding BWB has reached the point
> where it isn't about building or flying anymore, and it certainly isn't
> entertaining. I do NOT have a dog in this fight and really do not care
> what happened between him and the others at P'ville. I've tried to keep
> an open mind towards him because he really does have a lot to offer and
> has contributed greatly to the discussion here at times. But I also
> can't help but notice the pattern of alienation of people who he once
> called friends. Even Ammeter, who stuck with Bill through thick and
> thin on this group, has now been lumped in with the rest of the "low
> time wannabes" for having finally decided that enough was enough.
>
> <snip>

Del, in trying to figure out "what's reasonable" I try not to focus
on, what IMHO is a small dispute. If this thing was about someone
getting killed in an improperly built homebuilt that others could buy,
then I would agree with you: that individual should be ruthlessly
cross-examined and verbally expelled by the group. What I object to
here is the dishonest second identities that are created with the sole
objective of getting even with someone who is disliked. If
"Carburetor Bob" would come out and use one of the identities he has
always used and say: "foul language and social skills are more
important here than building time and flying experience," or "I feel
Bill's reached the point were I demand satisfaction" then I would
probably give it some weight and respect him for being a good
regulator of this unmoderated NG. BWB and Bob could go out to a
cornfield and dogfight to the death. But cheap shots don't cut it.

I realize this NG started out as a flying social. No reason that
shouldn't continue. I'm just pointing out that in my opinion, neither
you Del, or me pac have got the homebuilding experience credentials to
expel a guy like BWB. Now with my background as an A&P and a ME
instructor, if BWB started bragging in a serious manner that he was
making downwind takeoffs or takeoffs with one engine feathered out of
annual, then yes, it'd be up to me to try and run off a person like
that to prevent new pilots, who might read this board and
misunderstand and try the same thing. And yes, if somebody's trying
to hawk a real widow-maker he should be brought out for x-rays by
potential buyers like me. But if it's about who's acting like an
eccentric Howard Hughes, it's not relevant and I suggest you filter
him if you don't like it. Underhanded stabs in the back only make
free speech advocates like me view the BWB and Zoom witch hunts with
suspicion and contempt.

As always, all most posts are my opinions only,

pac

In > pacplyer wrote:

> Del, in trying to figure out "what's reasonable" I try not to focus
> on, what IMHO is a small dispute.

It started over a small dispute but it hasn't been about that in a long
time.

> If this thing was about someone
> getting killed in an improperly built homebuilt that others could buy,
> then I would agree with you: that individual should be ruthlessly
> cross-examined and verbally expelled by the group.

Since when am I trying to get somebody expelled from the group? Even if
I wanted such a thing it is technically unfeasible to accomplish.

> What I object to
> here is the dishonest second identities that are created with the sole
> objective of getting even with someone who is disliked.

I object to that also, along with anonymous posting in general.

> "Carburetor Bob" would come out and use one of the identities he has
> always used and say: "foul language and social skills are more
> important here than building time and flying experience,"

Having more building time and flying experience doesn't give anybody
license to treat other people like ****, either. Occasionally over the
last 2 years I've had to deal with a guy who is an A&P/IA but is also a
complete asshole who thinks he is god's gift to aviation. He could
probably teach me a lot about building and restoring aircraft but to me,
the price of admission is just too high. Now that I don't have to deal
with him anymore I won't. There are just too many people with equal or
better experience who don't have a need to treat less experienced people
like ****.

> or "I feel
> Bill's reached the point were I demand satisfaction" then I would
> probably give it some weight and respect him for being a good
> regulator of this unmoderated NG. BWB and Bob could go out to a
> cornfield and dogfight to the death. But cheap shots don't cut it.

Well, unfortunately our society has seen fit to outlaw the time honored
tradition of duelling.

> I realize this NG started out as a flying social. No reason that
> shouldn't continue.

The newsgroup has always been about homebuilding but also includes a
social aspect that occasionally gets out of hand. I don't really want
to change that and have in the past argued against such a change.

> I'm just pointing out that in my opinion, neither
> you Del, or me pac have got the homebuilding experience credentials to
> expel a guy like BWB.

Credentials or not, neither of us are trying to expel him, and could not
do so even if we wanted. I've actually gotten a lot of value out of
Bill's postings over the time that I've been here. I'm just tired of
the bull**** that always seems to surround him.

> Now with my background as an A&P and a ME
> instructor, if BWB started bragging in a serious manner that he was
> making downwind takeoffs or takeoffs with one engine feathered out of
> annual, then yes, it'd be up to me to try and run off a person like
> that to prevent new pilots, who might read this board and
> misunderstand and try the same thing.

Well, any new pilot dumb enough to try those things based on reading
about them on the internet probably deserves to be removed from the gene
pool, preferably before he/she earns their private and is allowed to
carry passengers. But as far as running somebody off, you can't do that
anyway, since there is no mechanism by which you can force them to stop
posting. You can call them an irresponsible buffoon and they may
voluntarily leave, but there isn't much you can do to actually make
somebody go, no matter how badly each of us might want that ability at
times.

And yes, if somebody's trying
> to hawk a real widow-maker he should be brought out for x-rays by
> potential buyers like me. But if it's about who's acting like an
> eccentric Howard Hughes, it's not relevant and I suggest you filter
> him if you don't like it. Underhanded stabs in the back only make
> free speech advocates like me view the BWB and Zoom witch hunts with
> suspicion and contempt.

So tell me, whose free speech is being restricted here, and who have I
stabbed in the back? And although I am not interested in discussing him
at this time, I suggest you need to do a little more research on Zoom in
order to understand exactly WHY he has generated such a negative
response here.

----------------------------------------------------
Del Rawlins-
Remove _kills_spammers_ to reply via email.
Unofficial Bearhawk FAQ website:
http://www.rawlinsbrothers.org/bhfaq/

"Del Rawlins" > wrote in message
...
[...]in the back? And although I am not interested in discussing him
> at this time, I suggest you need to do a little more research on Zoom in
> order to understand exactly WHY he has generated such a negative
> response here.

Oh, hell, dull Del, he threatened to sue anyone who jeered him. 15 or so
called his bluff and he did sue, and lost. He's an autoerotic nympho for
himself, has passed himself off as a doctor, and is a braggart poseur and
tells lies by the bundles, and is a damned sight more interesting character
than you are.

" jls" > wrote in message >...
> "Del Rawlins" > wrote in message
> ...
> [...]in the back? And although I am not interested in discussing him
> > at this time, I suggest you need to do a little more research on Zoom in
> > order to understand exactly WHY he has generated such a negative
> > response here.
>
> Oh, hell, dull Del, he threatened to sue anyone who jeered him. 15 or so
> called his bluff and he did sue, and lost. He's an autoerotic nympho for
> himself, has passed himself off as a doctor, and is a braggart poseur and
> tells lies by the bundles, and is a damned sight more interesting character
> than you are.

Geez Larry, he sounds just like half the posters here. Except RAH
posters try to pass themselves off as bona fide pilots and builders!
I like him already. I say we invite Captain Zoom back to RAH.

pac

(pacplyer) wrote in message >...

> I'm just pointing out that in my opinion, neither
> you Del, or me pac have got the homebuilding experience credentials to
> expel a guy like BWB. Now with my background as an A&P and a ME
> instructor,

Why do you think BWB has homebuilding experience? He built a Mini-max
and a weight shift Quicksilver. If you have an A&P you have 10 times
as much experience as he does. He bought all his airplanes. People
have more homebuilding experience in an RV-8 tail kit than he has.
Forget about his hours. He's never worked as a professional pilot.
He has the ratings now but do you really think he's flown 3000 hours
in helos in 3 years? Or that he learned to fly when he was 8 years
old? Or that he flew CIA helo missions in Cambodia as a 17 year old
civilian without a helo license? Or that he flew radioactive cloud
tracking missions in Nevada 10 years after the atmospheric test ban
treaty?

Sure, the EPA let him fly Hueys without a rating or a helo license.
That's the way the government works, it doesn't matter if you have the
paperwork or not, if you can do it they give you a million dollar helo
to cruise around in. You want to buy a bridge in New York?

Bill can't create anything, so the best he has is tearing people down.

(Al) wrote in message >...
>
> Why do you think BWB has homebuilding experience?

I glean that from his posts and from conversations with the man.
Other posters however, in contrast, are nice folks but, I've seen no
evidence that they have any experience in aviation at all (again,
gleaned from the absence of anything substantial in their posts.)

He built a Mini-max
> and a weight shift Quicksilver. If you have an A&P you have 10 times
> as much experience as he does. He bought all his airplanes. People
> have more homebuilding experience in an RV-8 tail kit than he has.
> Forget about his hours. He's never worked as a professional pilot.
> He has the ratings now but do you really think he's flown 3000 hours
> in helos in 3 years?

This seems like an emotional exaggeration to me. Where did BWB make
such a claim? I believe he's flown 3000 hours in helos total, yes.
Is all of it loggable? No. Did he actually fly the Hueys all over
the U.S. as sole manipulator of the controls? Yes. Would I bet my
life on him at the controls? Yes. The man's an Rotocraft instructor,
for Christsake. They don't give those ratings away.

Or that he learned to fly when he was 8 years
> old? Or that he flew CIA helo missions in Cambodia as a 17 year old
> civilian without a helo license? Or that he flew radioactive cloud
> tracking missions in Nevada 10 years after the atmospheric test ban
> treaty?

Yes, Yes, and Yes. I flew ILS's with my dad at about that age (but
did not solo.) I took formal lessons at 14. What's so hard to
believe about this? Kids learn quickly if they get the opportunity.
CIA stuff can't be discussed here. If you don't believe the CIA was
in Cambodia and would grab any E-2 attatched to the crew chief of a
helo they needed to accomplish the mission, then I can tell you've
never been in combat operations. It's very loose. Lot's of stuff
went on over there you wouldn't believe according to my old man who
was there.

>
> Sure, the EPA let him fly Hueys without a rating or a helo license.
> That's the way the government works, it doesn't matter if you have the
> paperwork or not, if you can do it they give you a million dollar helo
> to cruise around in. You want to buy a bridge in New York?

I've flown lots of stuff I wasn't qualified to fly in my career. I
flew a season as a co-pilot on a Beech 18 cause the pilot who was
qualified was too bored to do it any more. He slept after the gear
came up. He was so poorly paid he had a second job. You think flying
for a living is glamorous don't you? Much of it is hard dangerous
boring stressful thankless work. Companies and governments schedule
to get the max productivity out of your hide that they can. You give
up normal sleeping and eating cycles and this makes you fatigue easy.
People like Bill and I did it because we loved it. Bill may not have
been checked out in a lot of the aircraft he was a crewmember on, but
he flew the missions, I've seen the pictures. Ask yourself this Al:
Ten years after a treaty ban is it necessary to verify that new
radioactive trace particles aren't showing up circling the globe in
the upper jet? Of course it is. If it weren't for that verification;
countries might still be tempted to test up there. And I bet that
verification is the hardest job in the world, because you're expected
to loiter forever. My father flew 135 tankers over the artic during
the Cold War. It got were he hated it, and couldn't wait to get out
of SAC.
>
> Bill can't create anything, so the best he has is tearing people down.

Bill is just tired of the B.S. He's tired of explaining these things
to you guys Al, who can't ask him about it in a respectful manner.

Pacplyer

As always, all my posts are my opinion only.

On Sat, 5 Jun 2004 16:44:12 -0400, " jls" >
wrote:

>
>"Del Rawlins" > wrote in message
...
> [...]in the back? And although I am not interested in discussing him
>> at this time, I suggest you need to do a little more research on Zoom in
>> order to understand exactly WHY he has generated such a negative
>> response here.
>
>Oh, hell, dull Del, he threatened to sue anyone who jeered him. 15 or so
>called his bluff and he did sue, and lost. He's an autoerotic nympho for
>himself, has passed himself off as a doctor, and is a braggart poseur and
>tells lies by the bundles, and is a damned sight more interesting character
>than you are.
>


Ha ha Ha...not much different that 80% of the annonymous posters here.
Hell, in RAH, anyone can be a self proclaimed God. I'll bet you that
99% of the annonymous posteres on this ng haven't built a model
airplane let alone one that can carry a human. It's all bar-room bull
****.

BWB

>
>Geez Larry, he sounds just like half the posters here. Except RAH
>posters try to pass themselves off as bona fide pilots and builders!
>I like him already. I say we invite Captain Zoom back to RAH.
>
>pac


Took the words out of my mouth Pac. Zoom is more harmless than half
the crazed muther ****ers who read and post here.

BWB

In article >, Badwater Bill says...
>
>
>>
>>Geez Larry, he sounds just like half the posters here. Except RAH
>>posters try to pass themselves off as bona fide pilots and builders!
>>I like him already. I say we invite Captain Zoom back to RAH.
>>
>>pac
>
>
>Took the words out of my mouth Pac. Zoom is more harmless than half
>the crazed muther ****ers who read and post here.>BWB

He's harmless until it's your reputation that gets smeared and your livehood
that gets hurt. Sorry guys I can't agree with your opinions. None of the "crazed
muther ****ers who post and read here" has done the harm to people that zoom
has. I guess we are all intitled to our opinions and I have reasons for mine.


Chuck S RAH-15/1 ret.

In article >, pacplyer says...

>Geez Larry, he sounds just like half the posters here. Except RAH
>posters try to pass themselves off as bona fide pilots and builders!
>I like him already. I say we invite Captain Zoom back to RAH.
>
>pac
He won't come here he'll send a toady to do the dirty work. zoom can't bluff his
way out on this group because too many people know him for what he is.

See ya

Chuck S RAH-15/1 ret

On 5 Jun 2004 23:47:08 -0700, (Al) wrote:

(pacplyer) wrote in message >...
>
>> I'm just pointing out that in my opinion, neither
>> you Del, or me pac have got the homebuilding experience credentials to
>> expel a guy like BWB. Now with my background as an A&P and a ME
>> instructor,
>
>Why do you think BWB has homebuilding experience? He built a Mini-max
>and a weight shift Quicksilver.

And helped build an RV-6a which I test flew (see Kitplanes article
coming out in August 2004), and an RV-6 which I test flew and crashed
and a B-1RD which I test flew plus multiple hang gliders and other
**** I can't remember: and rebuilt a Stinson, a Champ, a Lark
Glider, a schwitzer 223 glider, a gyrocopter and a Mini-500 here in
Vegas, not the one Fred gave me. (Does rebuilding count? Huh? Does
it mommy?)

No, I haven't built a lot. Most of my building has been RC airplanes
and helicopters. But I have built a few, and I "Scratch Built" the
Minimax too. I made every single part in it. Have you ever done
that? Scratch built an airplane from plans?

I'll bet a million dollars that's more than this antonymous prick who
made this post.

> If you have an A&P you have 10 times
>as much experience as he does.

That's probably true. I never worked as a mechanic.

>He bought all his airplanes. People
>have more homebuilding experience in an RV-8 tail kit than he has.
>Forget about his hours. He's never worked as a professional pilot.

Oh really? Having a current medical and commercial license was in my
government job description for 25 years. I also took a year
sabbatical in 1984 and worked as a corporate pilot for West Coast
Holdings and Western Flier's, flying their C-421, C-414, C-210's and
an Aero Commander 680. I flew part time for two years before that and
3 years after that for them too AS A PROFESSIONAL PILOT. (You guys
think you know everything about my life. You haven't even touched the
tip of the iceberg).

>He has the ratings now but do you really think he's flown 3000 hours
>in helos in 3 years?

I didn't. I flew them in 1971,72,73, in Huey UH-1H's without a
rating. I was sitting in the left (copilot) seat for three years and
did most of the flying. I was just never PIC. I didn't have the money
to get rated or that time would have been logged. I had a commercial
airplane rating however and could fly them fine (but you wouldn't know
that either) I just got the official rating three of four years ago in
Helos.

I did log that 3000 hours in a separate logbook however. Even if it's
not valid FAA time, it's real time. I also sat in that piece of ****
for about 1000 longer than that watching the flying. It ain't like I
wasn't there.

> Or that he learned to fly when he was 8 years
>old?

Took my first ride at 8, learned to fly at 12.

>Or that he flew CIA helo missions in Cambodia as a 17 year old
>civilian without a helo license?

Makes you wonder doesn't it?

>Or that he flew radioactive cloud
>tracking missions in Nevada 10 years after the atmospheric test ban
>treaty?

Sure did. We tested under ground about three times a month for 30
years "after the ATMOSPHERIC test ban treaty." Some of them leaked.
All of us were always in position to track the radioactivity in the
atmosphere to guarantee that no civilians ever got a dose that
resulted in any health problems. Don't take my word for it, call the
DOE and request the annual reports. I built 2500 hours in the turbine
Vopar and the A-26's and got my ATP from that government time.

>
>Sure, the EPA let him fly Hueys without a rating or a helo license.

Yep. They sure did. For three years too. They did it all the time in
them-thar-days. Ratings-Shmatings, no one gave a ****. The PIC would
be asleep most of the time. I liked to fly, so I did most of it.
These kids were burnt out from the Viet Nam war (which was a war we
had that you are too young to remember). All they wanted to do was
screw the women all night long in whatever town we were staying in and
sleep all day long in the cockpit while I flew the mission. Do a
search on the National Lake Eutrophication Survey for that time period
and see what you find. If you find anything, you'll see me there.

>That's the way the government works, it doesn't matter if you have the
>paperwork or not, if you can do it they give you a million dollar helo
>to cruise around in.

Yep, that's the way it worked then.

You had to have a rated pilot on board. But remember that government
aircraft are Public Category Aircraft. You don't need a certificate
(license) to fly them. You just sign them out. Most military fighter
pilots do not have civilian ratings and couldn't rent a Cessna-150 if
they had to. Same in the Gument, even EPA. Those helicopters were
Army helicopters on loan to us. The pilots didn't need any civilian
ratings. And, I don't think they had them either. They were no
different than me. None of us had civilian ratings. You take a check
ride and pass and you get to fly.

Again here we have someone who thinks they know what's up. Just
another antonymous prick with a big opinion and a big mouth who most
likely never even soloed.

BWB




>You want to buy a bridge in New York?

Sure, then I can throw you off of it.
>
>Bill can't create anything, so the best he has is tearing people down.

Jealous?

BWB

>He won't come here he'll send a toady to do the dirty work. zoom can't bluff his
>way out on this group because too many people know him for what he is.
>
>See ya
>
>Chuck S RAH-15/1 ret

Ah, Zoom could bluff 90% of the halfwits who read this group Chuck.
He just can't bluff you or me or a guy like Pac. He's a master
bulffer to the normal run of the mill RAH subscriber.

BWB

I forgot to add that I actually held down a job for 30 years as a
physicist for the government too. That sort of got in my way of
homebuilding for kicks. You know what I mean? Like I had to get up
and go to a job for 9 hours each day most of my life. Not much time
to build expensive airplanes. Even in spite of that, I still built a
lot of stuff starting in high school when we recovered an old
Taylorcraft with cotton. ****, as I think back, the list is very
incomplete. Helped O'ring work on his Belly Anchor and the Stearman
and the Stinson. I even helped him build a hangar together in the
late 70's at Kidwell Field so we'd have a place to work on airplanes.

But, although nuclear physics was my primary trade for the Gument, I
was lucky enough to get off on some wild and crazy missions with some
card carrying kooks a few hundred times. I have way over 200 missions
over the Nevada Test Site as a Professional Pilot you anonymous
scumbag. And many more than that flying over 7 hours a day, during an
10 hour shift in Hueys, in every state in the union...every single
one.

And we did it for years too, you ****ing anonymous asshole. I'd like
to know who you are you wantabee piece of ****. You've watched me with
vicarious envy for long enough to know a lot of little pieces of
nothing that I've let you pricks nibble on for years. Now you know a
little more. Go spend a week researching it then come back and
apologize, you ****ing anonymous coward.

BWB





>And helped build an RV-6a which I test flew (see Kitplanes article
>coming out in August 2004), and an RV-6 which I test flew and crashed
>and a B-1RD which I test flew plus multiple hang gliders and other
>**** I can't remember: and rebuilt a Stinson, a Champ, a Lark
>Glider, a schwitzer 223 glider, a gyrocopter and a Mini-500 here in
>Vegas, not the one Fred gave me. (Does rebuilding count? Huh? Does
>it mommy?)
>
>No, I haven't built a lot. Most of my building has been RC airplanes
>and helicopters. But I have built a few, and I "Scratch Built" the
>Minimax too. I made every single part in it. Have you ever done
>that? Scratch built an airplane from plans?
>
>I'll bet a million dollars that's more than this antonymous prick who
>made this post.
>
>> If you have an A&P you have 10 times
>>as much experience as he does.
>
>That's probably true. I never worked as a mechanic.
>
>>He bought all his airplanes. People
>>have more homebuilding experience in an RV-8 tail kit than he has.
>>Forget about his hours. He's never worked as a professional pilot.
>
>Oh really? Having a current medical and commercial license was in my
>government job description for 25 years. I also took a year
>sabbatical in 1984 and worked as a corporate pilot for West Coast
>Holdings and Western Flier's, flying their C-421, C-414, C-210's and
>an Aero Commander 680. I flew part time for two years before that and
>3 years after that for them too AS A PROFESSIONAL PILOT. (You guys
>think you know everything about my life. You haven't even touched the
>tip of the iceberg).
>
>>He has the ratings now but do you really think he's flown 3000 hours
>>in helos in 3 years?
>
>I didn't. I flew them in 1971,72,73, in Huey UH-1H's without a
>rating. I was sitting in the left (copilot) seat for three years and
>did most of the flying. I was just never PIC. I didn't have the money
>to get rated or that time would have been logged. I had a commercial
>airplane rating however and could fly them fine (but you wouldn't know
>that either) I just got the official rating three of four years ago in
>Helos.
>
>I did log that 3000 hours in a separate logbook however. Even if it's
>not valid FAA time, it's real time. I also sat in that piece of ****
>for about 1000 longer than that watching the flying. It ain't like I
>wasn't there.
>
>> Or that he learned to fly when he was 8 years
>>old?
>
>Took my first ride at 8, learned to fly at 12.
>
>>Or that he flew CIA helo missions in Cambodia as a 17 year old
>>civilian without a helo license?
>
>Makes you wonder doesn't it?
>
>>Or that he flew radioactive cloud
>>tracking missions in Nevada 10 years after the atmospheric test ban
>>treaty?
>
>Sure did. We tested under ground about three times a month for 30
>years "after the ATMOSPHERIC test ban treaty." Some of them leaked.
>All of us were always in position to track the radioactivity in the
>atmosphere to guarantee that no civilians ever got a dose that
>resulted in any health problems. Don't take my word for it, call the
>DOE and request the annual reports. I built 2500 hours in the turbine
>Vopar and the A-26's and got my ATP from that government time.
>
>>
>>Sure, the EPA let him fly Hueys without a rating or a helo license.
>
>Yep. They sure did. For three years too. They did it all the time in
>them-thar-days. Ratings-Shmatings, no one gave a ****. The PIC would
>be asleep most of the time. I liked to fly, so I did most of it.
>These kids were burnt out from the Viet Nam war (which was a war we
>had that you are too young to remember). All they wanted to do was
>screw the women all night long in whatever town we were staying in and
>sleep all day long in the cockpit while I flew the mission. Do a
>search on the National Lake Eutrophication Survey for that time period
>and see what you find. If you find anything, you'll see me there.
>
>>That's the way the government works, it doesn't matter if you have the
>>paperwork or not, if you can do it they give you a million dollar helo
>>to cruise around in.
>
>Yep, that's the way it worked then.
>
>You had to have a rated pilot on board. But remember that government
>aircraft are Public Category Aircraft. You don't need a certificate
>(license) to fly them. You just sign them out. Most military fighter
>pilots do not have civilian ratings and couldn't rent a Cessna-150 if
>they had to. Same in the Gument, even EPA. Those helicopters were
>Army helicopters on loan to us. The pilots didn't need any civilian
>ratings. And, I don't think they had them either. They were no
>different than me. None of us had civilian ratings. You take a check
>ride and pass and you get to fly.
>
>Again here we have someone who thinks they know what's up. Just
>another antonymous prick with a big opinion and a big mouth who most
>likely never even soloed.
>
>BWB
>
>
>
>
>>You want to buy a bridge in New York?
>
>Sure, then I can throw you off of it.
>>
>>Bill can't create anything, so the best he has is tearing people down.
>
>Jealous?
>
>BWB
>
>
>

in helos in 3 years?
>
>This seems like an emotional exaggeration to me. Where did BWB make
>such a claim? I believe he's flown 3000 hours in helos total, yes.
>Is all of it loggable? No. Did he actually fly the Hueys all over
>the U.S. as sole manipulator of the controls? Yes. Would I bet my
>life on him at the controls? Yes. The man's an Rotocraft instructor,
>for Christsake. They don't give those ratings away.
>

Well, if you bet, you'd win. I feel like writing tonight so I'm a
gonna tell you kids the story about the National Lake Eutrophication
Survey.

BWB

In article >, Badwater Bill says...

>Ah, Zoom could bluff 90% of the halfwits who read this group Chuck.
>He just can't bluff you or me or a guy like Pac. He's a master
>bulffer to the normal run of the mill RAH subscriber.
>
>BWB
>

True enough but there were at least 15 of us he didn't bluff.The difference
between zoom and those who bluff here on RAH is that zoom actually "has" hurt
peoples reputations,caused them problems at their places of employment and a
whole list of other things because of his vindictive nature. After talking with
his former editor at SnF nothings changed. He's still a phony and is still
fooling people, especially those who read ANN and know nothing of his past.

See ya

Chuck S RAH-15/1 ret

(Badwater Bill) wrote in message >...
> in helos in 3 years?
> >
> >This seems like an emotional exaggeration to me. Where did BWB make
> >such a claim? I believe he's flown 3000 hours in helos total, yes.
> >Is all of it loggable? No. Did he actually fly the Hueys all over
> >the U.S. as sole manipulator of the controls? Yes. Would I bet my
> >life on him at the controls? Yes. The man's an Rotocraft instructor,
> >for Christsake. They don't give those ratings away.
> >
>
> Well, if you bet, you'd win. I feel like writing tonight so I'm a
> gonna tell you kids the story about the National Lake Eutrophication
> Survey.
>
> BWB

In article >, Badwater
Bill says...
>
>in helos in 3 years?
>>
>>This seems like an emotional exaggeration to me. Where did BWB make
>>such a claim? I believe he's flown 3000 hours in helos total, yes.
>>Is all of it loggable? No. Did he actually fly the Hueys all over
>>the U.S. as sole manipulator of the controls? Yes. Would I bet my
>>life on him at the controls? Yes. The man's an Rotocraft
instructor,
>>for Christsake. They don't give those ratings away.
>>
>
>Well, if you bet, you'd win. I feel like writing tonight so I'm a
>gonna tell you kids the story about the National Lake Eutrophication
>Survey.
>
>BWB

Good, that will put us to sleep fast.

You're the only 311t3 jet jock I've ever seen that actually has the
balls to log passenger time and brag about the RC models he's built.
Like people building airplanes care about your time in Hueies. So
what? Do you have a clue about how to get oil temps under control?
Or if Top Gloss is any good (it's not)? Are Swageloc fittings any
good? How about that Aussie hoop pine plywood? Know anything about
the Aero-Composites prop vrs the MT? Cleveland or Mattco? Whelen ar
Aero-Flash?

For the last 2 years the only thing you've told us is how great you
are and how the rest of us can suck your balls. Fine, you're 311t3.
Go be happy.

And tell Kubricky he'll only fund $50 million projects, he'll hava a
good laugh.

ChuckSlusarczyk > wrote in message >...
> In article >, Badwater Bill says...
>
> >Ah, Zoom could bluff 90% of the halfwits who read this group Chuck.
> >He just can't bluff you or me or a guy like Pac. He's a master
> >bulffer to the normal run of the mill RAH subscriber.
> >
> >BWB
> >
>
> True enough but there were at least 15 of us he didn't bluff.The difference
> between zoom and those who bluff here on RAH is that zoom actually "has" hurt
> peoples reputations,caused them problems at their places of employment and a
> whole list of other things because of his vindictive nature. After talking with
> his former editor at SnF nothings changed. He's still a phony and is still
> fooling people, especially those who read ANN and know nothing of his past.
>
> See ya
>
> Chuck S RAH-15/1 ret


Chuck, are you the same person who sold Easy Risers during the
foot-launched era about Oshgosh 77? CGS sounds awfully familiar.

pac

In article >, pacplyer says...

Yes sir that be me, and I also designed and built hang gliders I started in 1972
as Chuck Glider Supplies (CGS) .I'm the guy who started using reduction drives
on 2 strokes back then. Maybe we bumped into each other at Osh or SnF.

See ya

Chuck S


>Chuck, are you the same person who sold Easy Risers during the
>foot-launched era about Oshgosh 77? CGS sounds awfully familiar.
>
>pac

ChuckSlusarczyk > wrote in message >...
> In article >, pacplyer says...
>
> Yes sir that be me, and I also designed and built hang gliders I started in 1972
> as Chuck Glider Supplies (CGS) .I'm the guy who started using reduction drives
> on 2 strokes back then. Maybe we bumped into each other at Osh or SnF.
>
> See ya
>
> Chuck S
>

I got confused cuz I thought you bought the business from somebody
else. Mike P. sent me an email and explained the repurchase of the
co. I was a teen-ager at that show, I think it was 77', impressed
with your new reduction drive set up. It was the year this guy (I
think he had a direct drive) tried to footlaunch, tripped and broke
his back. I didn't see it happen, but I saw the blood on the broken
wooden prop. Was that 77 or earlier? So you were around at the
begining of the "powered hang glider" movement. I should be calling
you "sir."

pac

"All of the other "New Airports" have only GPS approaches.

The Bad News:

Pinckneyville, IL, is listed as being canceled. I would imagine the
airport
is being closed. Anybody down there know for sure what is happening? - Bob
Seigfried"

Anyone here know the real story?


--
Cy Galley
Safety Programs Editor
EAA Sport Pilot

"pacplyer" > wrote in message
om...
> ChuckSlusarczyk > wrote in message
>...
> > In article >, pacplyer
says...
> >
> > Yes sir that be me, and I also designed and built hang gliders I started
in 1972
> > as Chuck Glider Supplies (CGS) .I'm the guy who started using reduction
drives
> > on 2 strokes back then. Maybe we bumped into each other at Osh or SnF.
> >
> > See ya
> >
> > Chuck S
> >
>
> I got confused cuz I thought you bought the business from somebody
> else. Mike P. sent me an email and explained the repurchase of the
> co. I was a teen-ager at that show, I think it was 77', impressed
> with your new reduction drive set up. It was the year this guy (I
> think he had a direct drive) tried to footlaunch, tripped and broke
> his back. I didn't see it happen, but I saw the blood on the broken
> wooden prop. Was that 77 or earlier? So you were around at the
> begining of the "powered hang glider" movement. I should be calling
> you "sir."
>
> pac

In article >, pacplyer says...

>I got confused cuz I thought you bought the business from somebody
>else. Mike P. sent me an email and explained the repurchase of the
>co. I was a teen-ager at that show, I think it was 77', impressed
>with your new reduction drive set up. It was the year this guy (I
>think he had a direct drive) tried to footlaunch, tripped and broke
>his back. I didn't see it happen, but I saw the blood on the broken
>wooden prop. Was that 77 or earlier? So you were around at the
>begining of the "powered hang glider" movement. I should be calling
>you "sir."
>
>pac

No need for any sir business I'm not that vain :-) But I appreciate the
courtesy.I'm just one of the do nuthin no nuthin loudmouths here on RAH LOL!!! I
used to foot launch for about a year and by 1977 I had wheels. I was lucky
enough to survive the early days of Hang gliding AND ultralights. I think the
guy your talking about was from florida ,I haven't seen or heard of him since.

"Cy Galley" > wrote:

>"All of the other "New Airports" have only GPS approaches.
>
>The Bad News:
>
>Pinckneyville, IL, is listed as being canceled. I would imagine the
>airport
>is being closed. Anybody down there know for sure what is happening? - Bob
>Seigfried"
>
>Anyone here know the real story?

I hear the EPA is shutting it down as a Superfund site. Seems someone
spilled a cup of muzzleloader...

Mark Hickey

On 8 Jun 2004 16:32:57 -0700, ChuckSlusarczyk
> wrote:

>In article >, pacplyer says...
>
>>I got confused cuz I thought you bought the business from somebody
>>else. Mike P. sent me an email and explained the repurchase of the
>>co. I was a teen-ager at that show, I think it was 77', impressed
>>with your new reduction drive set up. It was the year this guy (I
>>think he had a direct drive) tried to footlaunch, tripped and broke
>>his back. I didn't see it happen, but I saw the blood on the broken
>>wooden prop. Was that 77 or earlier? So you were around at the
>>begining of the "powered hang glider" movement. I should be calling
>>you "sir."
>>
>>pac
>
>No need for any sir business I'm not that vain :-) But I appreciate the
>courtesy.I'm just one of the do nuthin no nuthin loudmouths here on RAH LOL!!! I
>used to foot launch for about a year and by 1977 I had wheels. I was lucky
>enough to survive the early days of Hang gliding AND ultralights. I think the
>guy your talking about was from florida ,I haven't seen or heard of him since.

Yeah, I think you are right. That year, 1977 I bought a Moody Power
Pac. Tom Verner and I bought it from you Chuck. Check your old
records and you'll see that shipment to Vegas that year. We mounted
it on an Easy Riser we built. Tom Verner and I took it out and foot
launched it many times. With the Easy Riser, you just hung from two
bars that went under your arm pits. If you let go, you fell out of
it. There was no strap to hold you in.

I thermalled that baby to about 5000 feet once after a foot
launch...scared the **** out of myself. The thermal wouldn't let me go
but finally spit me out there a mile above the dry lake bed. It took
me another 15 minutes to get back down and land. I never flew it
again.

That power pack used the Chrysler 801, twelve horsepower enging IIRC.
Amazing that you could fly so well on 12 horsepower. In 1980 Tom and
built two Quicksilvers on floats. That airplane had the Yamaha racing
go-cart engine. It was 15 hp I reacall. I have shot of it on floats
on Jay Honeck's page (I think).

It was the ultimate toy on floats. Until one day I was initiating a
water-tko and a boat ran in front of me making a large wave. I
aborted the tko, hit the wave and went over backward. As I capsized
backward I saw the surface of the water move away from my face as I
was dragged underwater. If you guys recall, the weight shift
Quicksilvers had two straps that held you in, one around each thigh.
They used a plastic disconnect that was rather hard to undo. As I was
5 feet under water and trapped in that seat I reached down for the
release and had a problem with it. I remember thinking to myself,
"You have one shot at this mutha. Just hold your breath, be
methodical, go slow and be deliberate. If you don't…you get to die
today.

I slowly unsnapped the left one, then reached over for the right one.
It was all in the dark at this point, I was 10 feet under water. The
right one wouldn't disconnect. I sighed in my mind's eye, and took a
second shot at it. Bingo, I was free. I swam away from the seat and
up to the surface. That was 24 years ago. Every day has been a free
day since that day. Well, other than the days I've spent after
hitting a wire in the Minimax, or losing that engine in the RV-6 a few
years ago when I had to dump it into the desert. Then there was the
time in the B-1RD I had three engine failures on me in one day. After
the third one, I abandoned that piece of **** in the desert and walked
home…or the time I got behind the power curve on take off in my
gyrocopter and crashed it in the desert. I walked home then too,
kicking myself for trashing a $3000 set of main rotor blades.

Let's see, how many lives is that? If I have nine, I'm only half way
through.

Some of the younger pilots at the helicopter company wonder why I'm so
anal about flying helicopters while they cowboy around like the 25
year olds that they are. It's because even if you do everything
right, "Flying" can still kill you DEAD. I'm to the point now that I
tell the kids: "If I'm in the cockpit with you, fly like you are on a
checkride with an FAA examiner. I don't want any horseplay at all
with me in this piece of ****. If you want to **** around then do it
all by yourself, not with me on board." I'm a cranky old **** and I'd
like to live a while longer.


BWB

Badwater Bill wrote:
>

> Some of the younger pilots at the helicopter company wonder why I'm so
> anal about flying helicopters while they cowboy around like the 25
> year olds that they are. It's because even if you do everything
> right, "Flying" can still kill you DEAD. I'm to the point now that I
> tell the kids: "If I'm in the cockpit with you, fly like you are on a
> checkride with an FAA examiner. I don't want any horseplay at all
> with me in this piece of ****. If you want to **** around then do it
> all by yourself, not with me on board." I'm a cranky old **** and I'd
> like to live a while longer.
>
> BWB


Amen, Reverend.

ChuckSlusarczyk > wrote
>
> No need for any sir business I'm not that vain :-) But I appreciate the
> courtesy.I'm just one of the do nuthin no nuthin loudmouths here on RAH LOL!!! I
> used to foot launch for about a year and by 1977 I had wheels. I was lucky
> enough to survive the early days of Hang gliding AND ultralights. I think the
> guy your talking about was from florida ,I haven't seen or heard of him since.

That foot-lauching stuff was pretty amazing. Shame cheap video was
not more common so that more of the "man will never fly" challengers
could have been caught on tape. I remember the ER pilots doing a "leg
up" to stow the gear. Flying around butt first. I always thought:
man, if the rubberband breaks at the wrong time, it's going to be a
tree-branch enema!

You should recount some of those tales here in RAH, chuck. We
self-proclaimed aviation gods in the peanut gallery MUST be
entertained or it's going to get ugly again!

;-)

pac

"pacplyer" > wrote in message
om...
ChuckSlusarczyk > wrote
>
> No need for any sir business I'm not that vain :-) But I appreciate the
> courtesy.I'm just one of the do nuthin no nuthin loudmouths here on RAH
LOL!!! I
> used to foot launch for about a year and by 1977 I had wheels. I was lucky
> enough to survive the early days of Hang gliding AND ultralights. I think
the
> guy your talking about was from florida ,I haven't seen or heard of him
since.

That foot-lauching stuff was pretty amazing. Shame cheap video was
not more common so that more of the "man will never fly" challengers
could have been caught on tape. I remember the ER pilots doing a "leg
up" to stow the gear. Flying around butt first. I always thought:
man, if the rubberband breaks at the wrong time, it's going to be a
tree-branch enema!

You should recount some of those tales here in RAH, chuck. We
self-proclaimed aviation gods in the peanut gallery MUST be
entertained or it's going to get ugly again!

;-)

pac

====================
What a stroll down memory lane. I saw John Moody do his infamous loop at
Osh. Later, I saw some chap attempt a foot launch in his Easy Riser and he
tripped at the runway edge - the pressure to merge with the other departing
traffic, combined with crosswind, got to him. Fortunately he was OK, but
some damage to his Easy Riser.

I still have fond recollections of foot launching at Coyote Hills Regional
Park out in Fremont, CA. Times were simpler and more fun - everyone seemed
to be willing to help each other. The image of a tree-branch enema made me
spew tea on my keyboard. Thankfully, I never thought of that as I retracted
the gear all those years ago. :-) Once I did land gear up while in a prone
position - smack into a clump of Poison Oak. The scratches on my forearms
helped the Poison Oak get a good start. But it was a nice landing. :-) I
was trying to extend my glide and misjudged the energy reserve to climb and
drop the gear in time.

Michael Pilla

>====================
>What a stroll down memory lane. I saw John Moody do his infamous loop at
>Osh. Later, I saw some chap attempt a foot launch in his Easy Riser and he
>tripped at the runway edge - the pressure to merge with the other departing
>traffic, combined with crosswind, got to him. Fortunately he was OK, but
>some damage to his Easy Riser.
>
>I still have fond recollections of foot launching at Coyote Hills Regional
>Park out in Fremont, CA. Times were simpler and more fun - everyone seemed
>to be willing to help each other. The image of a tree-branch enema made me
>spew tea on my keyboard. Thankfully, I never thought of that as I retracted
>the gear all those years ago. :-) Once I did land gear up while in a prone
>position - smack into a clump of Poison Oak. The scratches on my forearms
>helped the Poison Oak get a good start. But it was a nice landing. :-) I
>was trying to extend my glide and misjudged the energy reserve to climb and
>drop the gear in time.
>
>Michael Pilla
>


Hey, Mike...remember the GRADIENT? upon landing? Very few people know
about that. Only a hang glider pilot really knows what happens when
you drop through that last 15 feet and your headwind drops by 15 knots
and you drop like a brick. Only people who have ever flown that slow,
with a 18 knot stall speed are effect by that......or are they?

Get this. In a helicopter you could give a **** less what the
gradient is during the last 15 feet. You are at a high power setting
and no dependent upon the flow of air over your rotor disk. So, all
of the helicopter CFI's who teach helicopters have never really feel
that loss of airspeed in the last 15 feet like a hang glider pilot
does. In a hang glider in a 20 knot wind, you pull the ****ing bar
all the way in on your approach and pray you have enough ground speed
so when you go through the gradient you can flare.

Here's how it bites a helicopter CFI. He goes out on a day when
there's a 25 knot wind and does autorotations into the wind. At these
altitudes and temps the DA is about 6000 feet. In an R-22 you need to
carry a good 65 knots in order to have the energy at the bottom to
stop the descent. So, here comes Mr. flight instructor to demo an
auto rotation. He carries his 65 knots but then goes through the
gradient in the last 20 feet. He loses 15 to 20 knots of airspeed,
tries to flare and nothing happens, he just punches into the ground
in a nose high attitude.

In the auto rotation, it's the only time the helicopter flies like an
airplane...a slow airplane at that. These kids don't know about the
gradient. Helicopters are fun to fly in the wind. In fact theya are
more fun to fly in the wind (so are gyroplanes). But, there's the
gradient to deal with. In my gyrocopter I come in at 45 knots. Many
times in the last 10 feet I lose 15 knots. When that happens, it
takes everything there to flare and stop the descent.

All the hang glider flying I ever did is directly extrapolated to
gyrocopter flying and flying a helicopter in auto rotation. Most
CFI's in helicopters don't even know this. They get 500 hours total
time and they punch in one day, wondering why the flare did nothing to
stop the descent rate.

For those of you who don't fly helicopters this is the deal: You
can't do an autorotation straight down, pull pitch at the end and stop
the fall. If you do that, you die.

You need to have engergy in the forward direction in order to have
enough to stop the rate of descent by flaring. In fact 90% of your
total energy is in the kinetic energy you have by forward motion at
the bottom when you need to land. It is NOT stored in the main rotor
system at all. Only about 10% of what you need is in the main rotor
system. You need that 65 knots of forward motional energy to flare
and stop the 2000 fpm rate of descent. If you lose that airspeed
because of the GRADIENT, you can't flare. Just like in a winged
airplane. If you get too slow on the flare, you plop on.

There is nothing like a Trike, or a hang glider, or even a gyrocopter
to teach you this.

In airplanes it's not that big a deal. As you go through the gradient
in a normal airplane you are doing 70 knots or so anyway. So, a 15
knot decrease just makes a harder landing, it doesn't kill you. IN
fact you may not even know what happened to you and just think you got
unlucky a bit due to wind of some unknown origin.

You ****ing Jet Jocks like PAC never know anything like this. Hell,
you *******s land at 140 knots. A loss of 15 knots or so is nothing.

Flying a hang glider that stalls at 18 knots is where you really feel
it. You pull that bar in for dear life to get all the energy you can
muster in a head wind. You might get 30 knots. Then when you lose 15
of it, you are 3 knots below stall. You throw the bar all the way out
and pray you don't break your ass.

So, that's what I have to say about that.

**** ya all! and To all a good night.

BWB

In article >, pacplyer says...
>
>That foot-lauching stuff was pretty amazing. Shame cheap video was
>not more common so that more of the "man will never fly" challengers
>could have been caught on tape. I remember the ER pilots doing a "leg
>up" to stow the gear. Flying around butt first. I always thought:
>man, if the rubberband breaks at the wrong time, it's going to be a
>tree-branch enema!

Yeah I almost hurt myself during a skidding landing when I hit my butt that's
what convinced me to install landing gear on my ER. By the way it's now hanging
in the EAA Museum .
>
>You should recount some of those tales here in RAH, chuck. We
>self-proclaimed aviation gods in the peanut gallery MUST be
>entertained or it's going to get ugly again!

During my first Pinkneyville gathering when I think all the the RAH-15 were
present we all told some pretty good tales including yours truly. My stories
included flying early U/L's and a trip across lake Erie in my easy riser and
teaching flys to be fighter pilots.I'm doing a seminar at Oshkosh on the old
days and I'll have some old videos and old stories, check the EAA program for
time and location.

I wished I could have gone to P ville this year but I was in TN at the National
Indoor Model airplane Championships .I plan to go next year if at all possible I
always enjoy myself there.

See ya
Chuck S RAH-15/1 ret

>I wished I could have gone to P ville this year but I was in TN at the National
>Indoor Model airplane Championships .I plan to go next year if at all possible I
>always enjoy myself there.
>
>See ya
>Chuck S RAH-15/1 ret
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I've enjoyed myself at Pinckneyville too....
I'm told.


Muzzleloaded BOb -

(Badwater Bill) wrote
>
> It was the ultimate toy on floats. Until one day I was initiating a
> water-tko and a boat ran in front of me making a large wave. I
> aborted the tko, hit the wave and went over backward. As I capsized
> backward I saw the surface of the water move away from my face as I
> was dragged underwater. If you guys recall, the weight shift
> Quicksilvers had two straps that held you in, one around each thigh.
> They used a plastic disconnect that was rather hard to undo. As I was
> 5 feet under water and trapped in that seat I reached down for the
> release and had a problem with it. I remember thinking to myself,
> "You have one shot at this mutha. Just hold your breath, be
> methodical, go slow and be deliberate. If you don't?you get to die
> today.
>
> I slowly unsnapped the left one, then reached over for the right one.
> It was all in the dark at this point, I was 10 feet under water. The
> right one wouldn't disconnect. I sighed in my mind's eye, and took a
> second shot at it. Bingo, I was free. I swam away from the seat and
> up to the surface. That was 24 years ago. Every day has been a free
> day since that day.

Except today, since you posted it in RAH. I'll point it out before
"Anonymous Al" does: Your five minutes under water can not be logged
as floatplane time. This .05 hr time must go in the submarine column.
But since you were not checked out in the Navy as an underwater
diver, you must subtract another 30 seconds because the time you swam
to the surface without a vehicle attached to your ass was unloggable.
Let's get the experience straight for godsakes.

pac "analanonymous" plyer

On 10 Jun 2004 13:11:29 -0700,
(pacplyer) wrote:

(Badwater Bill) wrote
>>
>> It was the ultimate toy on floats. Until one day I was initiating a
>> water-tko and a boat ran in front of me making a large wave. I
>> aborted the tko, hit the wave and went over backward. As I capsized
>> backward I saw the surface of the water move away from my face as I
>> was dragged underwater. If you guys recall, the weight shift
>> Quicksilvers had two straps that held you in, one around each thigh.
>> They used a plastic disconnect that was rather hard to undo. As I was
>> 5 feet under water and trapped in that seat I reached down for the
>> release and had a problem with it. I remember thinking to myself,
>> "You have one shot at this mutha. Just hold your breath, be
>> methodical, go slow and be deliberate. If you don't?you get to die
>> today.
>>
>> I slowly unsnapped the left one, then reached over for the right one.
>> It was all in the dark at this point, I was 10 feet under water. The
>> right one wouldn't disconnect. I sighed in my mind's eye, and took a
>> second shot at it. Bingo, I was free. I swam away from the seat and
>> up to the surface. That was 24 years ago. Every day has been a free
>> day since that day.
>
>Except today, since you posted it in RAH. I'll point it out before
>"Anonymous Al" does: Your five minutes under water can not be logged
>as floatplane time. This .05 hr time must go in the submarine column.
> But since you were not checked out in the Navy as an underwater
>diver, you must subtract another 30 seconds because the time you swam
>to the surface without a vehicle attached to your ass was unloggable.
>Let's get the experience straight for godsakes.
>
>pac "analanonymous" plyer


Not to be too anal, PAC, but IMNSHO, 0.05 hours is 3 (three)
minutes, not 5 (five) minutes...

Or, is this how you get 3000 hours of flight time in only 6
months.....

Jon

jon

(Badwater Bill) wrote
>
> You ****ing Jet Jocks like PAC never know anything like this. Hell,
> you *******s land at 140 knots. A loss of 15 knots or so is nothing.
>

Please tell this to my dentist. Everytime a new f/o doesn't know
about "gradient" dropoff the resulting earthquake knocks out my
fillings. But it's typically the differential shear off from 200' on
in to flare that gets us. It takes a six sense or previous wind shear
report to warn us it's going to happen. Otherwise, if da pilot keeps
rounding out to make his touchdown target, and gets just a little
slow, that swept wing will fall out of the air faster than BYB out of
a muzzelloader hammock. (Vref minus five is a big big no-no.)

> Flying a hang glider that stalls at 18 knots is where you really feel
> it. You pull that bar in for dear life to get all the energy you can
> muster in a head wind. You might get 30 knots. Then when you lose 15
> of it, you are 3 knots below stall. You throw the bar all the way out
> and pray you don't break your ass.
>

But I agree, you "deadstick pilots" are real fearless mo-fo pilots.
Flying without motors.... One notch up from jumping out of perfectly
good airplanes if you ask me. That's some scary ****! ;-) Watched a
powered weight-shifer do a wild woofer-dil after t/o and almost smack
the ground at my airport during a windy day. The guy bought it up at
TSP in a non-rigid wing (glider) later the same year. They still
haven't found his body. (must be stuck in the brush somewhere, they
looked for him for about a week.) He was a big-time parasailer and
ballooner too. You guys must be good if you're still alive.

pac "hope-otto-can-save-my-ass" plyer

"pacplyer" > wrote in message
om...
> (Badwater Bill) wrote
<snip>
> But I agree, you "deadstick pilots" are real fearless mo-fo pilots.
> Flying without motors.... One notch up from jumping out of perfectly
> good airplanes if you ask me. That's some scary ****! ;-)
<snip>

Well, look at it this way:
When I release in my 1-26, I'm out of gas, there's no radio, I can't start
the engine, only one wheel is extended from the fuselage, and some guy is
diving past me for the airport.

Everything that the guys in power planes worry about has already happened,
so what could go wrong?

Tim Ward

John Ammeter > wrote in message >...
> On 10 Jun 2004 13:11:29 -0700,
> (pacplyer) wrote:
>
> (Badwater Bill) wrote
> >>
> >> It was the ultimate toy on floats. Until one day I was initiating a
> >> water-tko and a boat ran in front of me making a large wave. I
> >> aborted the tko, hit the wave and went over backward. As I capsized
> >> backward I saw the surface of the water move away from my face as I
> >> was dragged underwater. If you guys recall, the weight shift
> >> Quicksilvers had two straps that held you in, one around each thigh.
> >> They used a plastic disconnect that was rather hard to undo. As I was
> >> 5 feet under water and trapped in that seat I reached down for the
> >> release and had a problem with it. I remember thinking to myself,
> >> "You have one shot at this mutha. Just hold your breath, be
> >> methodical, go slow and be deliberate. If you don't?you get to die
> >> today.
> >>
> >> I slowly unsnapped the left one, then reached over for the right one.
> >> It was all in the dark at this point, I was 10 feet under water. The
> >> right one wouldn't disconnect. I sighed in my mind's eye, and took a
> >> second shot at it. Bingo, I was free. I swam away from the seat and
> >> up to the surface. That was 24 years ago. Every day has been a free
> >> day since that day.
> >
> >Except today, since you posted it in RAH. I'll point it out before
> >"Anonymous Al" does: Your five minutes under water can not be logged
> >as floatplane time. This .05 hr time must go in the submarine column.
> > But since you were not checked out in the Navy as an underwater
> >diver, you must subtract another 30 seconds because the time you swam
> >to the surface without a vehicle attached to your ass was unloggable.
> >Let's get the experience straight for godsakes.
> >
> >pac "analanonymous" plyer
>
>
> Not to be too anal, PAC, but IMNSHO, 0.05 hours is 3 (three)
> minutes, not 5 (five) minutes...
>
> Or, is this how you get 3000 hours of flight time in only 6
> months.....
>
> Jon
>
> jon

Yes three minutes (.05 hr) of sub time is all BWB gets. Rounding the
30 seconds of surfacing time up to an even minute gives you four
minutes of sub time. Then there's the anal factor of someone not
believing he was ever down there in the first place since a google
search doesn't produce any pictures of the event and then they would
"discover" that it took a minute for the frame to fill up with water
before it sank. So you understate the time by another minute and that
converts to .05 hours... As Judge Dread (Sylvester Stalone) used to
say: "I knew you'd say that."

pac "new math" plyer

>>The Bad News:
>>
>>Pinckneyville, IL, is listed as being canceled. I would imagine the
>>airport
>>is being closed. Anybody down there know for sure what is happening? - Bob
>>Seigfried"
>>
>>Anyone here know the real story?


>
>I hear the EPA is shutting it down as a Superfund site. Seems someone
>spilled a cup of muzzleloader...
>
>Mark Hickey
-=-=-=--=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

It's OK to blame me, Mark..
What can they do to a dead man?

Everyone saw me die at Pville in 1999. :-)


- Barnyard BOb -

I know for a fact that the Urban Legend, aka Barnyard Bob, didn't spill
any of the three cups of muzzleloader he finished off.

I drank about 1/2 of a paper cup of ML. Noticed a couple effects of
ML... first, my cheeks became quite "numb" and the last few sips tasted
better than the first. I had to drink it fairly fast since the bottom
of the cup was being eaten away by the ML and it was starting to leak
out the bottom. I think it also ate a couple holes in my shoes, too....

Amprobe

Barnyard BOb wrote:
>>> The Bad News:
>>>
>>> Pinckneyville, IL, is listed as being canceled. I would imagine the
>>> airport
>>> is being closed. Anybody down there know for sure what is happening? - Bob
>>> Seigfried"
>>>
>>> Anyone here know the real story?
>
>
>> I hear the EPA is shutting it down as a Superfund site. Seems someone
>> spilled a cup of muzzleloader...
>>
>> Mark Hickey
> -=-=-=--=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
>
> It's OK to blame me, Mark..
> What can they do to a dead man?
>
> Everyone saw me die at Pville in 1999. :-)
>
>
> - Barnyard BOb -